z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Discussions about Z-Way software and Z-Wave technology in general
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aLiEnHeAd
Posts: 51
Joined: 02 Feb 2017 15:09

Re: z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Post by aLiEnHeAd » 18 Jan 2018 10:27

fixit wrote:
16 Jan 2018 04:16
Drop legacy Jessie and get it running on Stretch.
I totally agree. There is no point in continuing Jessie development. I don't see any problem if current users want to use the latest and greatest z-way version to upgrade their system... and for new users it's easier anyway to just use the current standard RasPi OS

pwm
Posts: 14
Joined: 27 Jan 2018 20:30

Re: z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Post by pwm » 28 Jan 2018 02:18

PoltoS wrote:
26 Aug 2017 08:56
It is pretty hard to support many variants of libraries. May be once we see that this version will become part of Jessie
No, it isn't very hard to support many variants of libraries. And it isn't even many variants we are talking about.

You have for a long time now seen this version become part of Stretch. And it's Stretch - not Jessie - that matters to new users. While it's Stretch - not Jessie - that old users should move forward to.

How much wasted time are you prepared to cost your users before you spend a tiny amount of own time on building the source using the current - Stretch - environment?

The ground rule for anyone thinking about home automation should be security.
The ground rule for anyone thinking about supplying home automation products should be security.

Security implies a strong urge to keep systems updated. Which then also means a strong urge to make sure supplied products are supported on up-to-date systems.

No user should be required to stay with Jessie because someone thinks it's too much work to recompile for Stretch, and build proper - version-controlled - deb packages, where the installation can pick up the correct package.

Provo
Posts: 112
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:54

Re: z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Post by Provo » 29 Jan 2018 09:09

pwm wrote:
28 Jan 2018 02:18
Security implies a strong urge to keep systems updated. Which then also means a strong urge to make sure supplied products are supported on up-to-date systems.
While I aggree that Stretch should be supported, and that it's not a huge amount of work to do so, Jessie will be maintained until May 2020. So security is not the issue here.

pwm
Posts: 14
Joined: 27 Jan 2018 20:30

Re: z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Post by pwm » 29 Jan 2018 09:23

Provo wrote:
29 Jan 2018 09:09
pwm wrote:
28 Jan 2018 02:18
Security implies a strong urge to keep systems updated. Which then also means a strong urge to make sure supplied products are supported on up-to-date systems.
While I aggree that Stretch should be supported, and that it's not a huge amount of work to do so, Jessie will be maintained until May 2020. So security is not the issue here.
Security is an issue, because lots of people wants to use Stretch because they want to use the R-Pi for more things and other applications move forward with new features in their Stretch builds.

And the suggestion mentioned in a previous thread of manually downloading and installing libssl version 1.0.0 has the big problem that users going that route will not receive any security updates. libssl is a critical library, and Debian regularly releases new versions.

Because of this, the link suggested in a different thread is already dead - while the people who did download now has an older libssl affected by known security vulnerabilities.

I think the current Jesse version now is libssl1.0.0_1.0.2l-1~bpo8+1_armhf.deb

This means that the current "correct" way to run the z-way-server on an up-to-date R-Pi is to run a Jessie docker. That's a lot of additional complexity for the users because there isn't a Stretch build available. And in reality, people will end up going the simpler route and use a non-updating libssl file.

Provo
Posts: 112
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:54

Re: z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Post by Provo » 29 Jan 2018 16:29

You can't blame people's possibly unsafe workarounds to get the software working on something that isn't officially supported, on the software itself. There is no security issue with running Z-Way on Jessie.

And again, to prevent any misunderstandings, I very much agree that they should support Stretch, and at the very least in the meantime make it totally clear in the download section that it doesn't work on Stretch yet.

DarS
Posts: 12
Joined: 24 Mar 2015 07:48

Re: z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Post by DarS » 10 Feb 2018 19:54

Hi Provo,
Sorry, I was away for a while. And apologies for making fun of Z-Way developers. But I, like you, run Z-Way for years, and I'm far from being satisfied.
Few observations:
- any software can crash, no doubts. So you need to plan for it, develop proper logging and support procedures to troubleshoot if necessary. If you design your product the way that single button click sends the log to the vendor, I can guarantee you will have plenty of input for troubleshooting. But this is missing in Z-Way
- any software needs resources, no doubts. So you need to document the requirements so the user can select the appropriate platforms. But this is missing in Z-Way. You can, of course, experiment with 3xx and 5xx Z-Wave daugherboards to discover the nuances, but I don't think it is fun for someone who has deadline or angry family around. You can also reverse-engineer the Z-Way installation directory (it was secretly installed by the vendor script, so the standard 'apt-get' package manager knows nothing on Z-Way software...) to discover location of /z-way-server/config.xml configuration file...
Don't get me wrong - I understand that Z-Way mostly works, and that no software is perfect. But I think Z-Way needs more attention for basic things (troubleshooting, proper treatment of SD cards, support for new Raspbian) than bells and whistles (existing ssh tunnel to their data center, new GUI with old Expert mode, etc.).


Provo
Posts: 112
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:54

Re: z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Post by Provo » 13 Feb 2018 14:24

DarS wrote:
10 Feb 2018 19:54
But I, like you, run Z-Way for years, and I'm far from being satisfied.
I have zero issues with that. I disagreed with you on whether not supporting Stretch is a security issue.

Regarding automatic sending of log on crash, there is clearly room for improvement there. But often, the log will not give a very good idea of what went wrong. In this case, running Z-Way in a debugger environment is the only thing that can shed light on the issue. And they don't do that by default, naturally.

Regarding Z-Wave version 3xx vs 5xx, that is rarely a distinction made by any vendor, accept to mention something about Z-Wave Plus support, which Z-Wave.me also does.

And regarding wear of SD-cards, I don't think there is much the Z-Way people can do about that. My understanding is that this is purely a matter of wear leveling, and for that to function properly you need plenty of free space on your card. Bigger is better. It is also possible to decrease logging or use rsyslog to pipe the logging to a different computer.

DarS
Posts: 12
Joined: 24 Mar 2015 07:48

Re: z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Post by DarS » 14 Feb 2018 11:03

:-) Wow, amazing!
They need logs. And often, this is not provided by the ones complaining about the crashing.
But often, the log will not give a very good idea of what went wrong.
Interesting to see that these two sentences came from the same person.
I have zero issues with that.

God bless you! Textbook example of typical IT admin answer 'it works for me'. I guess you (I assume you are somehow associated with or work for Z-Way) sometimes listen to your customers. It will pay back.

Provo
Posts: 112
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:54

Re: z-way-server does not start in Stretch

Post by Provo » 14 Feb 2018 11:35

DarS wrote:
14 Feb 2018 11:03
:-) Wow, amazing!
They need logs. And often, this is not provided by the ones complaining about the crashing.
But often, the log will not give a very good idea of what went wrong.
Interesting to see that these two sentences came from the same person.
In what way are the two sentences incompatible? The logs are the first place to look, of course. But the sudden crashes that some have been experiencing lately do not appear in the logs. Automatic sending of logs, although it would be a nice feature and they should probably implement that, would not help in those cases.
DarS wrote:
14 Feb 2018 11:03
I have zero issues with that.

God bless you! Textbook example of typical IT admin answer 'it works for me'. I guess you (I assume you are somehow associated with or work for Z-Way) sometimes listen to your customers. It will pay back.
First, I have absolutely no association with Z-Way other than owning their product. Second, with "I have zero issues with that", I am not saying I have zero issues with Z-Way. I am saying that I have zero issues with you not being satisfied – I just disagreed with you on whether not supporting Stretch is a security issue.

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