Mark battery device as failed to remove it not working?

Discussions about Z-Way software and Z-Wave technology in general
pz1
Posts: 2053
Joined: 08 Apr 2012 13:44

Ultimately I am in the need

Post by pz1 » 28 Apr 2012 11:37

Ultimately I am in the need of 15+ of these devices. I am doing this for myself, but also as a demonstrator project. If I can't get DLC to work properly, I will cancel this whole project, because the expected savings in proper heating management should pay off the major part of the investment for the infrastructure.
Based on my experience to date, I would advise against any commercial implementation of DLC without Danfoss' proprietary controller (which ironically has been withdrawn from at least UK and NL markets because of malfunctioning). Though Danfoss states in its datasheet that DLC will work with their LINK controller or other controller, they appear to be utterly unhelpful to the implementers of third party software/hardware as you can read in the forums.
I think that Danfoss for the sake it its credibility, and to some extent also to the credibility of the Z-Wave Alliance, should make a simple reference implementation on a publicly available platform like e.g. this Z-Cloud application, or OpenRemote.
I am not in the position of commenting on other devices. I only have almost 40 years experience with traditional Danfoss radiator thermostats, which have served me very well.
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Manders
Posts: 27
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 05:42

I was told by danfoss that

Post by Manders » 28 Apr 2012 11:37

I was told by danfoss that living connect has never been on sale in the UK. They are expecting to start selling towards the end of this year.

I have it working reaonably reliably using schedules and battery drain is not so bad. OF course it isnt doing anything much in the way of controlling the temperature at the moment.

One problem with my USB stick is it loses the socket randonly and disconnects, otherwise it seems ok, Haven't tried climate schedules yet.


Manders
Posts: 27
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 05:42

Mine is now working reliably

Post by Manders » 28 Apr 2012 11:37

Mine is now working reliably except for the USB stick losing its connection. Part of my problems where that the software schedules were all wrong (now fixed) and not with the hardware.

I'm also testing LightwaveRF which may prove to be more robust and is a mass market product.

pz1
Posts: 2053
Joined: 08 Apr 2012 13:44

Confused

Post by pz1 » 28 Apr 2012 11:37

You say:
"We have several working installations with these thermstats (most having Z-Way locally) and once installed, there were not problems. But during inclusion we alse experienced problems and we needed to exclude-include back. May be it is worth to write to Danfoss about these problems?...."

I am confused. On the one hand you say that if I install Z-Way locally there are no problems. So if that is true, why should I write to Danfoss to help solve the problem I have with Z-Cloud.
What adds to this confusion is that it seems I can only purchase Z-Way in large quantities. That makes it a no go for private people like me.

This whole thing with the Danfoss LC gives me a rather negative feeling about Z-Wave, the Z-Wave alliance, and above all the Zwave logo on products. The certification seems to be meaningless, because interoperability means nothing in terms of functionally integrating systems.

It would be interesting to know how many installations of Z-way and Z-cloud are really working on a day to day basis with the DLC.
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pz1
Posts: 2053
Joined: 08 Apr 2012 13:44

Well if their controller has

Post by pz1 » 28 Apr 2012 11:37

Well if their controller has never been on the UK market, there is even more reason for them to provide a reference implementation I would say.
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Manders
Posts: 27
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 05:42

Flat battery

Post by Manders » 28 Apr 2012 11:37

Was dong quite well for a while, batteries on 54% for several days, then of course usb stick/software disconnects while i'm away for a day, doesnt auto-reconnect then batteries on 0% when i get home.

Im pretty much at the point of returning all the z-wave stuff to the shop and going another route, this solution is only for people with a lot if time to waste and wives that dont kick you when they wake up freezing!

pz1
Posts: 2053
Joined: 08 Apr 2012 13:44

Danfoss giving misleading information?

Post by pz1 » 28 Apr 2012 11:37

Thanks for the reply.
1) So I should rather have stated my subject as Danfoss Living Connect unfit for Zwave.me

2) This finding of yours does not surprise me. I see similar problems reported on other home automation forums like Homeseer and MicasaVerde. Also these people are struggling for over a year with this device. They also report about problematic relationships with Danfoss. (e.g. Promised feedback not arriving even after sending reminders).

That is even more surprising, because Danfoss is clearly stating in their datasheet Z_wave_living_connect_VDHMB202.pdf (downloaded 2012-04-06):

living connect® is a electronic radiator thermostat.
It can be controlled by either a Danfoss LinkTM CC
(Central Controller) or a Z-Wave certified control-ler.

This data sheet carries the Z-Wave logo, which means it has been certified. Users may assume that the certification process takes expected behavior of the device into account. As Z-wave is published as being an open standard, developers may also expect to have sufficient documentation to achieve expected behavior through any Z-wave certified controller.
I do appreciate that vendors can have additional proprietary functions. But those should not be necessary for stable device functioning. Certainly not if devices are sold without the explicit warning that it won't function without Danfoss' proprietary controller.

This is not to say that I dislike the device. I think it is great, and I think it has a lot of potential to help reduce energy consumption. Unfortunately with the Danfoss controller the total cost of ownership is rather high. Initiatives like open source controllers that run on NAS devices, or cloud based services like Zwave.me can significantly reduce those costs. In my opinion a responsible Danish manufacturer like Danfoss should provide more appropriate support for other controller solutions.

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pz1
Posts: 2053
Joined: 08 Apr 2012 13:44

Works on new version of Z-Cloud, but

Post by pz1 » 28 Apr 2012 11:37

"Mark battery device as failed to remove it" works on new version of Z-Cloud released today, but when I remove the device it shows some pop-up about I guess removing events where it is being used, but then I get on top of that another pop-up asking if I want it deleted from my floor plan (or something like that). After accepting that. The first pop-up has disappeared.
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pz1
Posts: 2053
Joined: 08 Apr 2012 13:44

Self repair is most important

Post by pz1 » 28 Apr 2012 11:37

Indeed self repair is the most important requirement for a home control system. While it is fun to look at the control screens while you are setting it up, ultimately you may want to leave it on it's own for several months.
For me it is as yet unclear wheter the problem lies in the Zway software, or in how the Zwave alliance has decided to deal with battery operated devices. May be the problem is only in the DLC. I have not yet looked extensively in the fora if other battery operated devices have the same problems, but I have not encountered it after reading over 1000 posts on Z-wave related fora.
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