Strongest Z-wave Controller

[Otter]

Good Morning all,

I work for a security company in Canada, and we inherited an account that has a fair few z-wave devices on it.

It uses a TL880 which I believe is the 500 z-wave chip, and the system is extremely laggy. takes 15+ minutes per discovery, disseminating updated user codes takes forever, any modifications are a slow cumbersome process.

they have ~40 door-locks and 15ish light switches/appliances modules as expanders.

is there a stronger Z-wave controller available/some optimization based on what you read above?

any questions for more detail please let me know.

Thank you,

[PoltoS]

You are on Z-Wave.Me forum, so RaZberry 7 Pro is the clear answer It has a lot of features including network analytics. But of course, there are other brands too. Or a new Alarm.com controller to replace the old one.

[Otter]

You are on Z-Wave.Me forum, so RaZberry 7 Pro is the clear answer It has a lot of features including network analytics. But of course, there are other brands too. Or a new Alarm.com controller to replace the old one.

Good Morning,

So this would involve a fair amount of programming correct? I know of the Pi, but I have never had hands on with this device. I assume that its not a plug and Play style of combination.

Do we have another option that would be plug and play that would be a solid upgrade to this ADC controller

Im not adverse to the option, but I expect there would be a solid learning curve first before I can get this setup for the customer?


Thank you,

[lanbrown]

Do we have another option that would be plug and play that would be a solid upgrade to this ADC controller

Im not adverse to the option, but I expect there would be a solid learning curve first before I can get this setup for the customer?

Thank you,

You're never going to find a "plug and play" replacement. The entire premise behind a technology like Z-Wave or even any of the other home automation technologies is automation. So you're looking for something to replace the current Z-Wave controller that is most likely part of an alarm system panel. Is that correct? Have you looked to see what automations your customer has? Then and only then can you start looking at what a replacement might look like. If any of their automations are using information from the alarm panel, then the new system would need to be able to integrate in with the alarm panel. It is feasible but does add complexity, cost and definitely means there would be no "plug and play" solution.

Here are somethings to think about. Typically you can perform a backup of the Z-Wave controller. This backup *should* have the Z-Wave associations in it. If that backup can be used to restore the associations on a new controller, that is may not be possible. That backup is not going to have the automations that could be restored on a totally different Z-Wave controller. Those would all need to be done by hand, so you would need to know exactly what the automations are doing and exactly why they are doing those automations. If the backup cannot restore the device associations, then you're looking at going to every device, excluding them from the current Z-Wave controller so you can include them with the new controller. There will be devices that may reset their settings though, so in reality, you would need to know about all of the devices and what their parameter settings are. So when they are included into the new Z-Way controller, you can verify the parameter settings are the same. Some settings though might need to be changed to work with a different controller. Also, some alarm panel manufacturers while they used Z-Wave, they essentially locked the devices into only being able to be used with their panels. So you will need to check that out.

You do realize that once you technically touch the Z-Wave network, that you're going to own it? Anytime your customer has an issue, it will always be, it worked before you changed/touched it.

In order for you to upgrade their system, you need to but at least one of every Z-Wave device they have. This is clearly after you have documented what their Z-Wave system is doing in terms of automation as well as why it does it. You should document all of the parameters that are configured and what the current firmware is on the Z-Wave devices. Now that you have your new Z-Wave controller and you have at least one type of every device that your customer has, you can check the inclusion process and start creating the automations that they currently have configured. This way you can document and know how to repeat that configuration when it comes to time to implement it on-prem. Now back to when I said you should document what the firmware level is. You might need to upgrade the firmware in devices. After all, if you tested with version w.x and they are running y.z then the inclusion process might not go as planned nor may how the device operates. So this will take time to do and the old controller may not offer a way to upgrade the firmware, but Z-Way and the Razberry 7 (Pro) do. Another issue, some companies don't offer firmware upgrades, some require you to send the modules in, other provide the updates on their website and lastly some provide an upgrade program that only works under Windows. So using a Razberry 7 (Pro) and Windows is not going to happen. So you might need to think about if you need to upgrade the firmware on their existing modules, but if you run into issues that are solved by a firmware upgrade (remember you mocked this up and it was running a specific firmware) then you need to figure out how to get it upgraded.

Raspberry Pi's are hard to come by and have been for a couple years now. You will also need to think about what the solution looks like in an eye pleasing fashion. Not many cases for a Rasberry Pi allow a hat to be used. You also need to think about is if the old system was on a battery backup. If it was, then you need the same on a Raspberry Pi as well. The cleanest solution that allows for the Razberry 7 Pro hat to be used inside a case and if battery backup is a requirement, the Waveshare PoE UPS for the Raspberry Pi CM4. Mind you, the case/board is around $100 and that doesn't include the batteries for backup nor the Raspberry Pi CM4 module. You still need to buy a Razberry 7 (Pro) as well. The CM4 is going to be $75 to $200 depending on what model you go with. The Razberry 7 Pro is around $80.

If you need to integrate with an alarm panel, that is a much bigger task. I'm going to assume that they came from alarm.com and I have no idea if from their app they can control Z-Wave devices. If that is the case, then keeping that same functionality is never going to happen. So if you need to integrate with an alarm panel, then you need to start looking at what Home Automation programs have an integration for the panel in question. Then you need to see if they support Z-Wave and then you can pick a Z-Wave controller like the Razberry 7 Pro. A note on that, Amazon is out of the Pro versions.

So you inherited an account that will probably turn into a nightmare. I would let the management of whatever alarm monitoring company you work for make the decision on what to do. This isn't going to be an afternoon endeavor to switch from one controller to another. You need to mock it up, test it, document it and then implement it. So that involves time and money. Your customer might also need to make some sacrifices in what they have today and what it will be tomorrow. Lastly, you need to be able to support whatever you put in. Not just you, but any of the employees that might be going to the customer site when they have an issue. If you don't understand Z-Wave, Raspberry Pi, Linux, whatever Z-Wave controller/software, then you're setting yourself up for failure and a lot of pain. With the on-going supply chain issues, you almost need to keep spares on-hand. Pretty sure your customer wouldn't like the we're trying to find parts which can take days, weeks or months. You can find almost anything quickly, but the price might be more than you're willing to pay. Raspberry Pi from unauthorized sellers is 50 to 100% above the MSRP, but you also cannot consistently find that authorized dealers have them in stock. They get stock every 30 to 90 days and they sell out in a few hours/days. So there is more time where they don't have stock than they do. They also are not taking backorders.

[Otter]

Do we have another option that would be plug and play that would be a solid upgrade to this ADC controller

Im not adverse to the option, but I expect there would be a solid learning curve first before I can get this setup for the customer?

Thank you,

You're never going to find a "plug and play" replacement. The entire premise behind a technology like Z-Wave or even any of the other home automation technologies is automation. So you're looking for something to replace the current Z-Wave controller that is most likely part of an alarm system panel. Is that correct? Have you looked to see what automations your customer has? Then and only then can you start looking at what a replacement might look like. If any of their automations are using information from the alarm panel, then the new system would need to be able to integrate in with the alarm panel. It is feasible but does add complexity, cost and definitely means there would be no "plug and play" solution.

Here are somethings to think about. Typically you can perform a backup of the Z-Wave controller. This backup *should* have the Z-Wave associations in it. If that backup can be used to restore the associations on a new controller, that is may not be possible. That backup is not going to have the automations that could be restored on a totally different Z-Wave controller. Those would all need to be done by hand, so you would need to know exactly what the automations are doing and exactly why they are doing those automations. If the backup cannot restore the device associations, then you're looking at going to every device, excluding them from the current Z-Wave controller so you can include them with the new controller. There will be devices that may reset their settings though, so in reality, you would need to know about all of the devices and what their parameter settings are. So when they are included into the new Z-Way controller, you can verify the parameter settings are the same. Some settings though might need to be changed to work with a different controller. Also, some alarm panel manufacturers while they used Z-Wave, they essentially locked the devices into only being able to be used with their panels. So you will need to check that out.

You do realize that once you technically touch the Z-Wave network, that you're going to own it? Anytime your customer has an issue, it will always be, it worked before you changed/touched it.

In order for you to upgrade their system, you need to but at least one of every Z-Wave device they have. This is clearly after you have documented what their Z-Wave system is doing in terms of automation as well as why it does it. You should document all of the parameters that are configured and what the current firmware is on the Z-Wave devices. Now that you have your new Z-Wave controller and you have at least one type of every device that your customer has, you can check the inclusion process and start creating the automations that they currently have configured. This way you can document and know how to repeat that configuration when it comes to time to implement it on-prem. Now back to when I said you should document what the firmware level is. You might need to upgrade the firmware in devices. After all, if you tested with version w.x and they are running y.z then the inclusion process might not go as planned nor may how the device operates. So this will take time to do and the old controller may not offer a way to upgrade the firmware, but Z-Way and the Razberry 7 (Pro) do. Another issue, some companies don't offer firmware upgrades, some require you to send the modules in, other provide the updates on their website and lastly some provide an upgrade program that only works under Windows. So using a Razberry 7 (Pro) and Windows is not going to happen. So you might need to think about if you need to upgrade the firmware on their existing modules, but if you run into issues that are solved by a firmware upgrade (remember you mocked this up and it was running a specific firmware) then you need to figure out how to get it upgraded.

Raspberry Pi's are hard to come by and have been for a couple years now. You will also need to think about what the solution looks like in an eye pleasing fashion. Not many cases for a Rasberry Pi allow a hat to be used. You also need to think about is if the old system was on a battery backup. If it was, then you need the same on a Raspberry Pi as well. The cleanest solution that allows for the Razberry 7 Pro hat to be used inside a case and if battery backup is a requirement, the Waveshare PoE UPS for the Raspberry Pi CM4. Mind you, the case/board is around $100 and that doesn't include the batteries for backup nor the Raspberry Pi CM4 module. You still need to buy a Razberry 7 (Pro) as well. The CM4 is going to be $75 to $200 depending on what model you go with. The Razberry 7 Pro is around $80.

If you need to integrate with an alarm panel, that is a much bigger task. I'm going to assume that they came from alarm.com and I have no idea if from their app they can control Z-Wave devices. If that is the case, then keeping that same functionality is never going to happen. So if you need to integrate with an alarm panel, then you need to start looking at what Home Automation programs have an integration for the panel in question. Then you need to see if they support Z-Wave and then you can pick a Z-Wave controller like the Razberry 7 Pro. A note on that, Amazon is out of the Pro versions.

So you inherited an account that will probably turn into a nightmare. I would let the management of whatever alarm monitoring company you work for make the decision on what to do. This isn't going to be an afternoon endeavor to switch from one controller to another. You need to mock it up, test it, document it and then implement it. So that involves time and money. Your customer might also need to make some sacrifices in what they have today and what it will be tomorrow. Lastly, you need to be able to support whatever you put in. Not just you, but any of the employees that might be going to the customer site when they have an issue. If you don't understand Z-Wave, Raspberry Pi, Linux, whatever Z-Wave controller/software, then you're setting yourself up for failure and a lot of pain. With the on-going supply chain issues, you almost need to keep spares on-hand. Pretty sure your customer wouldn't like the we're trying to find parts which can take days, weeks or months. You can find almost anything quickly, but the price might be more than you're willing to pay. Raspberry Pi from unauthorized sellers is 50 to 100% above the MSRP, but you also cannot consistently find that authorized dealers have them in stock. They get stock every 30 to 90 days and they sell out in a few hours/days. So there is more time where they don't have stock than they do. They also are not taking backorders.

First off, thank you for the detailed Responses Ian. Many valuable points brought up.

1. There is no automation. the only real thing they are doing is controlling lock codes. The problem is there are ~35 locks on site, so the network discovery/modifying codes takes ~15 Minutes/Lock. As well, with the S2 protocol, the ADC TL880 doesnt really have good capabilities of adding it secure, so an error code frequently pops up with the warning that its only attached with S0, and user codes dont populate correctly.

2. Thank you as well for those details on approximate costs and requirements. I have already learned alot about what is actually being asked for by my extremely general question.

3. yes. its already a nightmare. Nice customers & willing to spend money but Need to have a properly built solution with data for them to spend money. which i dont have for any of this at the option.

it sounds like frankly the PI is not the right option for this situation. If we were building this for a long term solution perhaps, but they are looking for a shorter term solution to assist on the current situation while they get funding for a full access control Upgrade.

based on the question answers above, There is no true automation being run here. There are locks, and they control codes to each lock, and that is everything they are looking for.

ADC takes a a lot of the programming work out with their WYSWYG interface.

ignoring the connection to the same APP, can someone think of a stronger/better controller that would be able to control users/Door codes in a similar fashion?

[lanbrown]

Z-wave.me is a company that sells Z-wave controllers; either USB or GPIO based for use on a Raspberry Pi. The USB variant can be used on other operating systems. They also offer their home automation software called Z-Way to use with the Z-Wave controllers that they sell.

The controller is more or less just an interface into the Z-Wave protocol. There are other controllers out there, you still need software for the home automation to use with the controller.